- [Aimee] I would say don't be afraid
to invest what you have.
Don't be afraid to spend what you have,
because it's an investment in people
and that people will generate the data,
the data will generate the papers,
and the papers will generate the grants,
which will refill the coffers.
So, I think I had a period where I just was like,
oh, I'm just going to hold on to my startup,
and then I realized, God, I got to to spend it,
'cause if I don't spend it, nothing's going to get produced.
(calm music)
- [Thi] I'm Thi Nguyen for Strategy for Scientists
at the University of California, San Francisco.
In this podcast, I talk to Aimee Kao,
an associate professor of neurology at UCSF.
We talked about her process for developing a research plan,
and starting with how she cultivates good ideas.
She shares also how she mentors graduates students
and post-docs when they make discoveries,
and the factors she considers
in this mentoring relationships.
Finally, Aimee talks about
the importance of conducting rigorous research,
and staying vigilant to maintain
a high-caliber research lab.
To start the interview, I asked Aimee her strategy
behind developing her research plan.
- [Aimee] The process, I guess,
at least most recently, has been.
letting ideas kind of germinate in my brain for a while.
Gathering data,
kind of let anything just bounce around.
And then, actually before I'm ready to,
I start talking about the ideas.
And that's maybe bad,
I don't know, everyone doesn't do that,
but what I find is it's helpful to help me organize them.
They come out and then they go back in
a slightly different way.
And I also get ideas, new directions
and new aspects of the problem that I would not do,
I would not have gotten on my own.
Most recently, I actually wrote a grant on these ideas
that have been bumping around in my head
for half a year or more.
At that point, the grant writing process was like butter.
It was a joyous, I guess,
export of ideas from my head onto a piece of paper.
It wasn't effortless,
I mean it took like a ton of time,
and I had to do all sorts of additional reading,
and make sure that things I want to do were feasible,
and checking to make sure I could justify them.
But really, I mean, that process was a very very fun one,
because I think the ideas had formulated.
We were in the right place, the right time,
right granting mechanism to just get them all down on paper.
- [Thi] After the exciting process of generating ideas,
the next step is prioritizing them.
I asked Aimee how she prioritizes her ideas.
Aimee talks about how she had to go back to the root
of science in her lab,
and define the value proposition.
Or, what makes her research program unique.
From there, the projects could grow.
It also helps Aimee when determining when to say no
to new projects.
- [Aimee] I think prioritizing experiments
when I was in the lab was more straightforward,
because I had a project, and I had experiments.
I could sort of determine what was the most important.
But then, as I left the lab and became more of a PI,
I think then becoming sort of responsible
for the direction of the lab was quite confusing to me.
Trying to organize the lab thematically
to develop the vision.
Some people, I think, are more born with this than I am.
I really, I struggle to find the correct direction
and the correct way of prioritizing.
I don't know that I have solved that problem,
but now I think I that,
we have touch zone, so the ideas,
we're interested in protein homeostasis
and lysosome function.
Everything kind of flows from there.
So, for example, let's say a new gene is discovered,
and somebody wants me to study it.
I think there might be some that,
we can devote a smaller number of resources to
that could sort of help somebody else out.
But for me to really go full-bore and move into it,
the area, we need to be able to relate it thematically to
what we're most interested in doing.
I think it's easy to spread oneself too thin,
I think I've done that,
I think it's ineffective,
and it's all part and parcels of learning how to say no.
(calm music)
- [Thi] So, one factor that helps Aimee prioritize projects
outside the lab, is fit.
Does it fit with her research and her interests?
Well, I asked Aimee about the situation where a post-doc
or a graduate student from her own lab comes to her
with a really exciting finding that could take her lab
in a direction away from her original touchpoint,
away from homeostasis and lysosome biology.
How does she decides whether or not to pursue it?
Aimee explains that her flexibility
in letting a trainee pursue projects away
from her core area, depends on whether
that trainee is a post-doc or a graduate student,
because they're at different stages in their careers.
- [Aimee] First thing is, it's a post-doc.
And so I think, post-docs actually need to be developing
their own research program.
And so, if that takes him away from what we're doing,
that's absolutely fine,
because they need to develop their own research project,
and I would be fully supportive of that.
Exciting science is exciting science,
and discovering new things is discovering new things.
And so, I think those are all reasons
to simply pursue a new idea.
I would love to be in that position actually more.
I think it might be slightly different
for a graduate student who is maybe more reliant on me
for a history of science,
a practical history of like,
how many rabbit holes is it possible to go down
before one learns not to go down rabbit holes?
And so, I do have, I have a better sense of that,
I think, just 'cause I've gone down more rabbit holes.
So I think, that's, you know,
are we always going down a rabbit hole,
or is this something new
and fundamentally interesting and important.
And I think that important question is something that
I learn slowly, I used to think just anything is,
anything new is new and that's great.
But, I do think we're are obligated to study things
that are important on some level.
It could be a basic level, it could be translational level,
or it could be an applied level.
And we just need to be careful, not to get too far away
from our core mission.
- [Thi] Aimee was awarded her for R1,
and things were going well.
So, I asked Aimee to share a lesson she's learned
the hard way, when she was starting out.
I asked her to impart wisdom
on the next scientific generation.
She talks about the importance of managing the culture,
that make sure science is done with rigor.
(calm music)
- [Aimee] I guess one thing is,
don't get too far away from the science,
and always be vigilant
about the veracity of the science
that's coming in front of you.
I tend to be an optimistic,
I tend to see the best of, in everyone.
But I think we need to be very critical of the science
that we see, we always want to look at primary data.
And, if that little voice in your head starts coming
and saying, there's something, like this is too great,
that this is too perfect.
I'm worried that you should listen to it.
Definitely don't turn your back on it,
and get to the bottom of it.
And I think part of that is encouraging a lab culture
in which we're open and free
to ask questions and be constructively critical.
It's part of lab culture that doesn't,
that puts rigor and hard work
above just producing.
I was lucky because I had a situation,
and then I caught it early.
But I was shocked, because I just, you know,
you hear about scientific misconduct,
but actually caught it.
And now, I've seen it in other groups,
and so, I'm very vigilant, I think it's really important.
- [Thi] I thought it was interesting that of all the things
that Aimee could focus on,
she framed that conducting research
with scientific scrutiny is critical to the lab culture.
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to Aimee's stories
about developing her research plan,
starting with, letting it marinate
and vetting the ideas with others.
I also enjoyed hearing about how she mentors her post-docs
and graduate students.
And how she helps them develop and prioritize
their research interest.
On a personal note, I enjoyed talking science with Aimee,
because that was my area of research,
and I find lysosomes fascinating organelles.
(calm music)
Thank you for listening to Strategy for Scientists.
Interested in learning more?
Check out the online lectures co-produced by iBiology
of UCSF Office of Career and Professional Development.
We'd like to thank the Burroughs Wellcome Fund
and the NIH National Institute of General Medical Sciences
or NIGSM, for grant funding.
Thanks also to PRX Podcast Garage, in Boston,
for the studio space and helping us to get started
with this production.
Tune in for more stories about scientists
using strategy.
(calm music)