- Sound check, can everybody hear me?
Excellent, okay so welcome to today's live Q&A
where we are going to chat about how to discuss
your research plan with a mentor.
I'm Shannon Behrman, Associate Director of Scientific
Training and Education at iBiology.
I'm also a co-producer of the iBiology,
planning your scientific journey course.
And I am very happy to be here today
with our panelists so let me introduce them.
First, we have Cynthia Fuhrmann.
She is the assistant dean of career
and professional development,
and assistant professor of biochemistry
and molecular pharmacology at University
of Massachusetts Medical medical school.
At umass med school, she founded and directs
the Center for Biomedical Career Development,
which is dedicated to taking a scholarly approach
to enhancing the professional development of scientist.
We also have Rick Mickey.
He is the associate dean for professional development
at North Western University Feinberg School of Medicine.
Where he is responsible for assisting
the transition of junior faculty
as they initiate their independent research careers.
Since 2014, he's has been part of a national research
mentoring network in NRMN, expanding a highly effective
grant writing, coaching group program,
and helping to create and test novel
culturally aware mentorship workshops.
So I just want to thank you both so much for being here.
You guys are really going to add
a lot of value to this course.
And I also want to welcome our Q&A audience.
Some of you are possibly taking the planning
of scientific theory course right now,
and for those who are you will recognize
one of those speakers Cynthia Fuhrmann.
She was really great addition to the course.
She really talks a lot about planning,
which is incredibly helpful for grad students and post Ops.
So in the course right now,
students are building research plans and scheduling meetings
with their mentors to discuss these plans.
And our goal is to support the students in this course
and all trainees really to have a productive conversation
with their mentor about the resource and research plan.
So I'm going to start off with a couple of questions
for Cynthia and Rick,
and then I will ask questions from the audience.
So please feel free to start typing in your questions
in the live chat box on the right on the YouTube page,
and we'll get to them as soon as possible.
We'll also have a couple of questions
already from the students that were generated in the course.
So before we get started this questions though,
I just want to take a second to define what we mean
when we're talking about a research plan.
So for the purposes of this conversation,
we don't just mean your to do list of tasks
that you're going to be doing for your research projects
in the next week or so.
Here we're talking about your research strategy
for your project, at least the next 3 months,
6 months to a year.
So conversations of this kind involving your research plan
will likely include discussing
the research question itself,
the expected outcomes and the experimental approach.
So I'm going to stop talking now
and let's get to the questions.
The first question I'm going to direct at first to Cynthia,
and that is how should I go about having a conversation
about my research plan with my advisor or mentor?
This is different from my normal checking conversation
with my PI, what should I have prepared
for this kind of meeting?
- Thanks Sharon, I would say that it's really difficult
to define what a normal conversation with the PI might be.
Everyone's normal conversation may be different.
Depending on their relationship with their PI
and their own working styles
and the working styles of their PI.
In general, when I reflect on when I was a scientist,
and when I speak with my own supervisor at times.
I might think of a standard meeting as an update on
what I'm working on currently,
and what I'll be working on the next week or so
and perhaps focus on some challenges that I'm having
and discussing it with them.
I think what we're talking about here today
is a bigger picture discussion
about where your research is headed.
What are the major milestones coming up
and how have reach certain milestones to this point.
So this is really an opportunity for you
to have a bigger picture discussion
with your research advisor
about how you see your research moving forward.
There's a number of ways
that you can prepare for this meeting.
I would in particular advise, thinking ahead
and coming in with an agenda to the meeting.
You as the person doing the research day to day
can help to drive the meeting and set the agenda.
And you can come in with some highlights
of some of the progress you've made
since your last bigger picture meeting.
And a preview of some of the milestones or benchmarks
you're expecting to meet moving forward,
and that can start as a starting point
for that conversation.
- Okay, thank you so much.
That was great, I really appreciated your discussion about
or the distinction between the weekly meetings
that you may have verses the bigger picture
discussion with your mentor.
Rick do you have anything
that you would like to add to Cynthia's response?
- Yeah, thanks very much.
I think what I would add is the answer and the strategy
probably changes a lot over time.
It really depends on kind of where,
when he is in the research project,
and how far along you are.
So you look at taking from the state during graduate school.
When you first start out,
in most cases, you're relatively limited knowledge
of the project that you working on.
So what you can bring in a bigger picture
is going to be very different than
as you evolve over time in a research strategy.
And I think that's typically one of the main things
that happens when you're putting a dissertation proposal
and sometimes it for a qualifying exam.
Sometimes it's just important to put it to you
so that you know where you're going.
So I think off the time that will evolve
so I think anyone who is,
think of it as an evolving process.
That as you get further along
how far out you can look becomes further.
And I think also the degree
to which you can actually come in
with a full picture of the science and the knowledge,
and the logic behind it will also change
quite a bit over time.
And that's normal, I think it really emphasize
if you just getting started you gotta know this is normal.
Not knowing how to get started,
we all start at that same point
but that gradually changes over time.
And the nature of the conversation
will change over time as well
as you become much more knowledgeable.
And so the logic behind you are thinking of where a project
is going will begin to get much more full
and much more clear as you move forward.
As again as you come in the conversation
as Cynthia alluded to already is coming in with a plan,
and have an idea where you want to go,
the conversations so you're not wandering.
But it will change a lot as you evolved
in the developmental process of becoming a scientist.
- Yeah and I would add that a goal for these conversations
is to make sure you're on the same page,
and you have similar expectations
for what the priorities are moving forward.
But another really important goal is to be flexible
and really come forward prepare for the conversation
but be ready to listen and change course during the meeting,
based on where your discussion takes you.
- That is a really great advice
so definitely have goals for the meeting
that you want to communicate with your advisor,
and also be flexible so that
you can adapt to new ideas in the moment.
As well as be kind to yourself
and know that you're going to evolve
and become better at this sort of things
as you continue to do research.
So I do want to even take a step back further
and just talk about why it is important
to actually have a conversation with your mentor,
or several conversations
with your mentor during your training
about your research plan.
Why is talking about long term goals incredibly important?
And maybe we'll start with you Rick.
- Yeah I think the way I would describe it is
that process is how you go
from doing experiments to doing research.
So in other words, if you're just looking at each day,
the day in and day out.
You can be doing experiments but many times,
you can lose sight of where these experiments going.
Why am I doing this experiment verses another experiment?
So it's like the difference
between just doing experiments
without having any long term plan laid out.
You very easily could end up spending
a whole lot of wasted time going in directions,
that ultimately are not going to get you
where you want to go.
But again that's what will evolves with time
is your ability to look at that bigger picture
come up with and make those decisions.
It's one of the things with research,
there's always different branching point.
You can always go different directions
and so that a longer term conversation
always looking at those different directions,
the different strategies and also science doesn't sit still.
So you may have this great plan and all the sudden,
you pick up a paper and like oh wait a minute,
but if you don't have that longterm view.
You can't see how the new knowledge fits into
and how the new knowledge might
affect that long-term strategy.
But again it's also this process of deciding
what are the right things to do
and really keep getting me closer to the real questions.
As opposed to, well it's easy to keep doing experiments
just to get them done.
But it's absolutely essential,
you have to have it to have good science.
You have to have the longer term questions
and you have to have the longer term reassessing it.
Because even how you look at things,
it's always going to be changing.
Science it just doesn't sit still,
so it's absolutely essential to have those bigger
directional discussions as well as the short-term,
what are we doing next week?
- That's really great answer,
yes we absolutely need it to be good scientist
because you need to direction on where to go.
Cynthia did you want to add anything to Rick's response?
- Yeah, I think he nailed it,
and I will add that reflecting
on Rick's comments earlier.
This is also about your development as a scientist,
from being a student, maybe to being post ops
and into your career.
And so these big picture discussions and sitting back
and reflecting about your research and where it's headed
or where it should head, and how the new knowledge
you're gaining and the field is gaining,
should influence that.
That's about your development as a scientist
from an experimentalist to a researcher.
And it's also something that you'll continue
into your career, so your advisor has these tons
of big picture discussions with others as well.
And it might be over lunch or in other types of venues
often that conferences that they attend.
But that's a really, really important part
of being scientist is thinking about the big picture
and how our projects need to evolve.
- Yeah, I'll just quick pop in with that.
As Cynthia points out literally these are the conversations
I have with faculty today.
So this is evolution, this is normal way of life
for science and believe me,
it doesn't change when you step over into that next.
And that dialogue, the conversation going back and forth.
I literally do this on a daily basis, do advice.
I literally just 2 hours ago
in a grant writing group process I run.
Having these kind of conversations,
so this is absolutely a normal part of science.
That you are looking at the bigger
and the smaller questions simultaneously.
- That's really great advice, thank you guys so much.
So we've gotten a question through the live chat
on to basically have a conversation with your mentor
when you don't think that your plan
is going according to plan.
And I actually wanted to take a step back even further
and make that even bigger picture because it seems
like we get this sort of question often.
Which is how to have a difficult conversation
with your mentor either because you're not making
progress like you want to or your ideas don't necessarily
match that of your mentor.
Or you get some weird funky results
that you just can't explain.
So I'm wondering if you could just give
some really solid advice, tips what have you.
For one, how to prepare for a discussion like that
and two, how to navigate that discussion in the moment.
And Cynthia, I was wondering if you could start with you.
- Anytime you think of a difficult conversation
and in some cases this might be
just a difficult conversation because you're frustrated
with the project and how it's moving forward.
Or it might be a difficult conversation
because you feel that you're maybe not making
the progress you would expect of yourself,
and that's going to feel difficult.
But anytime, you approach that kind of conversation.
I think it's helpful to think ahead
about what they common ground is.
Where are the areas where you and your research advisor
in this case will share priorities?
And that might be that you want to see the project
moving forward, that you want to see the science
moving forward, that you're both really excited about it.
Whatever the common ground is, use that to keep you grounded
and you can even use that common ground
to open the conversation.
And then pose the challenges that you're facing
and have a discussion about it.
I'm going to pass to you Rick.
- Okay, yeah, I think this is again,
one of those you'll hear me say this
quite a bit throughout the session.
The first response is it depends.
It depends on and the starting point really
is the nature of the relationship,
and so I think that's one of the key things
is really take the time
to develop a real ongoing relationship.
Both for someone you're being mentored by
and someone you are mentoring
so it all in different directions.
because having a solid open relationship,
one of really respect for each other
and respect how you think.
That's the starting point if you have that
then a whole lot of other things can work
within that framework.
And I guess a lot of it depends on what makes it challenging
if you think there's going to be an actual disagreement
verses well nothing's working.
And I think one the things there is as much as you can
and things when you come into a conversation,
where you've got a problem.
If you could come in the same time
with alternative solutions.
So for example, if you're working at something
for several weeks, it's just not working.
Always starting from giving your best guess
of what you think is going on,
and so you come into the conversation.
Okay this isn't working.
Here is what I have done, here is what I've analyzed.
Here is my thinking, it's almost being able
to displaying your thinking from the standpoint.
This is science, this is just how it behaves
or not in most cases.
And so you go into it thinking here's the situation.
Here's what's not working.
Here's my thoughts of what were working.
If the kind of conversation
or the most difficult is you think the whole
direction might be one way.
Your mentor thinks it ought to go the other way,
those are the real difficult conversations.
That Cynthia has said before, you have a common ground
and you recognize that it's not going to always be
in the same direction, that's why they call it science.
That's why they call it research.
If we knew the answer, it would be simple.
So I think again looking at it from the standpoint
as Cynthia brought in before.
You're going to listen as much as to talk
but you could go in with something planned ahead of time
into the conversation.
And again, it's absolutely like Cynthia said.
You're looking at how can you come to a solution
where every again it feels like,
okay we've got some kind of a workable way
to move forward here even if it isn't exactly
what I wanted when I came out of it.
I think if most conversations evolve and change
over time based on the degree to which
you have the scientific experience.
Have different ways looking of looking at things.
- Yeah, I want to add too, often we hear from students that
students for example meet with their thesis committees,
and it's not uncommon for us to hear them say
well I'm not ready to meet with my thesis committee
because I need more preliminary data.
Things aren't working, I want to wait till their working
so that they can show them what I've done.
And sometimes a better way to look at that
meeting is an opportunity to have multiple mentors
in the room there to discuss your research with you.
And help you think about how to get over those challenges
that you're facing and so it might not be as much
about reporting on the preliminary data
or the data you have to date or your progress.
It might be also about getting their help
like Rick mentioned.
Bringing in your ideas for how to move forward
and taking the opportunity,
a really great opportunity to have these mentors
in the room to help you think through whether
those are the right steps
or if there's other approaches you might take.
- So well said, so well said.
And I think you guys have really inspired more questions
now so we're definitely getting a lot more
and I'm going to pivot to more of those.
So someone asked the question that what do you do
if your mentor is not willing
to create a longer term plan beyond
more than a couple of weeks?
How do you navigate that situation?
Maybe Rick we'll start with you.
- Can I pass?
Now we're getting onto the real difficult conversations.
You've hardly given us a few minutes to warm up.
No joking aside, these are not easy.
I absolutely joking is beside.
These can be difficult conversations
like I guess in that case I would start
by trying to get a handle on trying to get a sense
of why the person seems be reluctant,
to look beyond a couple of weeks.
Is it there's all kinds of different explanations.
It may be well that just may be how they work
and they have a very short cycle.
It maybe because they don't really have an idea
where it's going to go.
And sometimes it can be a matter of you guys
just don't know enough to know where it's going to go,
and so reluctant to go to that.
A more difficult one is if they don't necessarily
see the person as having enough knowledge base
or enough ability to look beyond that.
That's more challenging because that's suggesting that
just the relationship isn't one that is really mutually
respecting the person's ability,
and what they can bring to the table.
It's interesting because I haven't run into
and I can honestly say I haven't heard
a lot of people run into that in the past.
I'm thinking through the kind of things
that might cause it to be the case.
Sometimes it can be stress,
quite honestly, people believe it or not.
They're people first, they're scientists second
and stress can play tremendous impact on people.
So I might ask the question is this something
that's always the case.
Is this something that seems to just popped up?
Is it something that behavior is the same for me
and as it is for everybody in the lab?
If it just for me then that raises another question
of trying to understand it.
At some point, if you get too frustrated.
You just call a question.
So you know what I'm seeing here
is that you never seem to be, to me it feels,
I'd like to be able to plan further out
than just a couple weeks at a time.
One time as a student can say,
I'd like to just practice the idea
of thinking bigger in science.
Can I just practice this idea
so it feels like they're acknowledging?
I may not be as good at this as you are
but I need to practice,
if I don't practice it, I'll never get any better.
So sometimes you can reframe it
into a totally different neutral situation.
But I guess, this is my thing.
Try to see of you can figure what it is
that's causing a person to not want to
have that conversation.
Cynthia, you've got any solutions
up your sleeve on that one?
- I think that's a fantastic answer and I want to reflect
on what you just used as your language.
You used I, you talked about what I'm observing.
Will you help me if we could?
Instead of saying you never do this
or you X, Y or Z and so using I language
can I think help frame that conversation perhaps.
It could be a difficult conversation
but being open may give you really good insights.
Maybe the person has a big grant deadline coming up
or there's just many different priorities
or like you said it.
It just might be their own personal style of planning.
So having that open conversation
could be really helpful.
- That's really great.
I really like the idea of reframing it
as a skills development opportunity, because it's true.
You really have to be able to plan for the long term,
even outside of science.
It's just such an incredible important skill.
- I might just pop in one quick add to there too.
It's also really many times,
you can get advice from other people in a lab.
So again, if this is a new behavior and just popped up.
Other people in the lab might be able help you
translate what's going on.
So I think that's where other people
within a research group can help each other a lot
understanding and coming up with strategies.
- That's really great, thanks so much.
We have many more questions.
I hope that I can get to all of them but one of them is,
The question is how should I ask my mentor
for a side project as a plan B?
And so I guess the bigger picture is how can you
do long term planning, I guess some risks benefits
evaluation with your mentor to come up with a plan B
in the event that things don't necessarily work out?
And I guess we'll start with Cynthia.
- This sounds like a valuable conversation
to have sometimes.
If you're on a high risk project
or project that looks like it might not
be taking you where you wanted to go.
Some of you may be in this situation.
When you pose that question Shannon,
it makes me remember that have you are as a student.
You have your own goals as a student aside
from the research goals.
The research could continue without you theoretically.
But you need to graduate,
you need to move on to the next stages of your training.
Or as a post op similarly, and it could be that the project
needs to be shifted or what have you.
So it seems like a really human conversation to me.
In terms of we can have a conversation
about the research and both be real excited
about the research,.
But let's also incorporate into that conversation,
a piece about myself where I am developing.
And thinking about my graduation
or my time to finish this post op
or this piece of my training.
How does this project fit in?
And you can have a conversation
about I'm concerned because of my timeline.
I'm really hoping to be at this stage by this point
and I have concerns about where this project is heading.
I also have a lot of excitement
around this other project,
and so I was wondering if we could have a conversation
about how these two might interplay in the package.
A portfolio of what I'm working on in the lab.
- Okay I think there are a couple of things
that popped into my mind is I often say
the most difficult task many times
a scientist actually has to face is
when to stop trying to answer a question.
And when to stop pursuing and one point is that
do you come to that stage of saying.
I've given my shot,
it's just not working or this is just not going direction.
So again, I frame it form this standpoint of almost
I need to practice that.
At the same time also practicing the idea of coming up
with different ideas,
and especially if an idea is high risk.
Acknowledging high risk, okay.
And so can I hear as almost acknowledging it.
I know this is probably a crazy idea,
but it's something that I think would be kind of cool.
How about if I agreed if I could have maybe
just spend one day a week or something like that.
But at the same time I would always start
with putting a boundary on it.
So that a person, a PI doesn't begin to see this
as something that could completely
take everybody off track here.
Because when you're starting a new ideas
especially if it's something that may be quite novel.
You actually have to careful.
To put some boundaries on it saying
I'm going to try this much effort.
Walk along a little bit, as I again get to practice
this idea of coming up with ideas,
and it's this balancing of risk and reward.
And I think what you'd be surprised,
most PIs are, they totally get it.
They live this life everyday in and day out.
So as much as you acknowledging,
you're practicing this and acknowledging.
You have an idea and sometimes negotiating.
Such a form of negotiation,
in terms of and I think a lot it may depend
on how much resources are available.
So if you're in a research group,
there's lots of money.
Then all of a sudden the tolerance for that goes up.
If you're in a research group, every dollar matters.
Then I think you have to be really cautious
about that because it's a difficult business,
and it can really ebb and flow
depending on the ratio of resource available
to a number of people who need them.
Again I think I'd be real sensitive to that environment
that everyone finds themselves in these days.
- Yeah, that's really important and there might be
some certain goals or milestones
that your group needs to reach for grants
and other things that they have committed to.
It's really important to have that open conversation
and be flexible in listening.
- Those were both really great answers.
Yes, I really like that idea about it depends.
It really depends on the resources of your lab
and whether coming up with a plan B makes sense.
But if you've identified this as something that's important,
then really being open in the conversation
about why that is important to you.
So we've definitely been getting a few questions
related to this and we've also been getting some questions
in the course itself, about the scenario where your research
interests or your ideas
don't necessarily align with your mentor.
And so I'm wondering if you could talk
about that specifically.
How do you negotiate that conversation
or series of conversations when you're developing
a research project or let's say when you're deciding on
what new directions to take.
Where the ideas themselves are not matching.
What specifically can you advise
to students with this problem,
and I guess maybe Rick, we'll start with you.
- I think that's an interesting question,
because you could frame in a couple of different ways.
One where you went into a lab,
thinking I have this great idea,
and I'm going to move this direction going into the lab.
Those are more difficult
because even in the initial conversation,
it might sound like a great idea,
but when push comes to shove.
All of a sudden, it's a lot harder to do that,
but if you're, so you're in a research group.
And your interests are evolving.
It's tough if you really committed to that group,
and then all of a sudden your interests
are really changing.
Aside from leaving the group,
which is the ultimate outcome
if it gets too far estranged.
There is only so much latitude,
particularly if they're going so far a field,
they may not be within scope of the research funding.
You have to be careful is that research funding
is provided from some agency
among a scope of research involves.
And you find your research going out of scope.
You really don't have,
unless you've got your own money.
It's pretty hard to go that far.
It also may depend on if the other scenario
where the lab or the PI.
Their interests may be shifting
and then they're going in the direction
you're not interested in.
That's a whole 'nother scenario.
And it's again, you just have to negotiate that
and acknowledge it and there's room for both.
In all these things,
is there anyway to have both at the same time?
Sometimes all that begins splitting your time.
because initially when you start out as a graduate student,
you don't want to split your time too much.
You want to get focus but as you get more mature,
you can split your time.
So that would be one possibility,
but it's one of the more difficult scenarios
if the shift is really great.
If all of a sudden, I have seen this actually
with graduate students and it's where you come into
a lab, you think it's going to be great.
Then all of a sudden, a year or two in,
you're just totally lost interest in the lab.
It does happen and sometimes in those cases,
it's actually better
to just acknowledge it and move on.
That does happen and sometimes that's the best outcome
for everybody because it's hard as a scientist
to really put in the time and effort,
if it just isn't interesting to you.
So sometimes, you just have to face that
and that could be a really difficult conversation.
But usually it's a good one to have I would say.
- Yeah, it's truly just fundamentally
don't enjoy doing the project day to day.
Have real trouble being excited about it.
An exit strategy out of the group
might be the best solution.
And it's important to think of exit strategies
throughout your career in lots of different scenarios.
And so that's actually a really good skill to have too
is recognizing yourself, when it's actually just better
to thank the person for what you've gotten and exit.
This question stems from those ideas are okay,
but I'm really about this
and I really want to pursue this.
I think in that case, this might also be another negotiation
conversation where you can talk about potentially doing
this other thing you're really excited about on the side.
While reassuring your research advisor
that this core project is really important
and you recognize that and you'll carry it through.
If that's the case, I think my own personal approach
would be to feel probably a little disappointment maybe,
for the thing that I'm realizing is really cool,
and I really wish I could pursue.
But to recognize that it's a lot of fun to work for somebody
when they're really excited about your project also.
And so there's a lot of benefits for you
to look for the things that you find exciting
and rewarding in the project that your research advisors
is also really excited about if that's possible project.
As a student or as a post op,
you're on these projects temporarily,
as anyone in science really.
Although science projects can move and change over time,
and again you can always exit.
But I love the idea of working for somebody
on something that you're both excited about.
And remember they will be an important recommendation
or reference for you in the future.
And so having a strong open working relationship
where you can talk openly about these things,
but find a good solution is really important.
- Can I just piggy back a little bit on that too
in terms of it really brings up how important it is
when you're beginning to engage
in initial mentoring relationship.
Really spend the time, really think carefully
this idea of I really love the group.
I really don't like the science
but I love working with the group.
That's probably not the best scenario.
Likewise if I really love the science
but I really don't like the people,
that also isn't going to be necessarily
very workable situation.
So I get it really highlights importance of thinking
very carefully, both the science and the people.
Whenever you're beginning to lool at any new scientific
relationship that you're going into,
especially as a trainee.
Now really do your homework,
really find out if this is a good fit.
because it's a period of time and a major shift
is not the most fun thing in the world.
Everyone wants to avoid that if all possible.
- That's definitely true and graduate students
have the benefit often of being able to rotate through labs
and so be able to test out
those personal working relationships
and the dynamics within the group
as well as the research projects fit.
Post ops and others at different stages,
don't necessarily have that opportunity.
I think it's really good advice
to ask some really good questions.
Interviewing person if you can and really think about
whether a position is the right fit for you.
- That's all really great
and I'm so glad that you be touched on this idea
of finding a balance of good mentorship
with really interesting research.
One thing that we haven't really touched on at all
in this course is the importance of finding good mentorship,
and how to do that.
We hoped to do that with future resources
but I know this is a huge topic.
It wouldn't be possible to cover it
in the next 30 minutes.
But I'm just wondering if you guys could just
maybe just give some general advice
on how one could seek good mentorship.
Doesn't necessarily have to be with your PI,
but maybe if you're not getting your needs met.
How do you seek mentorship from other people
and in whom should you seek mentorship from?
And that I think I started with Rick last time
so let's start with Cynthia.
Although I could be forgetting but.
- Sure, well once you have a research advisor,
finding additional mentors really come through building
relationships with people.
And they might be peer mentor
and it's important that the mentors are higher
on the developmental stages of yourself.
So people more senior to yourself
but it's really about meeting people
and having conversations, discussing science.
Just normal relationship building,
nothing special to this right,
but then with the people who you find
if you find it really exciting to talk with them.
They seem likewise engaged in what you're doing.
They seem like they're good listeners.
Those might be people that you could think
about building stronger relationships with.
More in terms of being a mentor for you.
And it's really important to think
about having multiple mentors.
Mentors for your research
because your research is probably multifaceted
and could have value from having perspective
from a number of different sub disciplines
or people specialize different techniques whatever it is.
So that type of mentorship is important,
also mentorship for how to navigate
the challenges of science.
It's really important and (indistinct talking)
you want to move into in the future for your career
or the next step of your training.
I think it really starts with relationship building.
- And I actually might step it back a little bit further
too in terms of it really starts from looking at
what is it you're looking for.
And really identifying specifically
so it's moving it I think we've got research
mentors within science.
You have a concept of those holistic combination
of different things and you can see that,
which even no two relationship there are alike.
But after that I guess I would almost
take the specific of what I'm looking for specifically
for a mentor for something.
And it can actually be really quite small.
We're starting to just talk about it more from
almost precise short term mentoring to complement.
And as Cynthia has pointed out,
having relationship enables that
but also it can be like I use example with the faculty.
About to write a journal article for a journal
I have never written for before.
And I see somebody there's a person around me,
who has published on that.
All of a sudden, gee I see you published in the journal.
I never have, I would if you could so I could use you
a little bit to help me understand
how to write for this kind of a journal.
That's mentoring from the standpoint
and it very narrowly defined,
and you almost never have anybody say no.
But if you have to go up to somebody
and say gee, will you be my mentor?
The first response is what does that mean>
And it sounds like a big task,
so you can break it down in these little bits.
And sometimes individual developmental plans,
or other ways, really starts from looking at yourself.
What is it you feel that you need?
What could be helpful?
And then who are the people around me,
could help me with that specific thing as opposed to.
So it really starts with this internal self-reflection
and looking at yourself as the starting point.
I think this is really important.
Start looking beyond the classic research mentoring.
- That's really great.
I really love that you brought up the self reflection.
That's always so important to do especially
when you're doing anything.
Anything for any type of career
but for science it's especially important.
So we've gotten some questions possibly from a post op.
They want to know is there any specific advice
for post op and how to manage their relationship
with their mentors.
I'm assuming it's because the post op
has a a bit of a weird position
that they're not quite a grad student,
but they're not quite an independent researcher.
So can you give me advice for post op specifically
on mentoring and how to get their mentorship?
And we'll start with you Rick.
- Yeah, there's a whole world of looking
at developing the skills in mentor relationships.
It's probably the leading group,
the leading people who really define
what are the attributes of effective mentor relationship.
How you think about this and break it down
into these attributes of this relationship.
How you acknowledge the tension
between my needs and the other person's needs.
Acknowledging all these things,
that's out of the (indistinct talking) Wisconsin.
The group that I have been for many years.
Have really core elements of how you achieve effect
mentoring relationship.
Now most of then in the past
has been taught as mentors.
We've actually recent, we've actually publish a book,
chapter on something call mentoring up.
So that's way if you actually look at it
and learn the elements of effective mentoring relationships.
You can actually manage up ward.
Manage your own relationships,
but it really comes down to communication.
And one of the problems you run into in science.
so much of our communications is oblique
or sometimes silent.
Now we're not really good at being direct
and putting out there.
Okay this is what I like to talk about.
So I think it's communication, communication, communication,
and then there are some really core attributes.
It's a skill.
We've moved into thinking about mentoring
and these relationships as a skill
in managing and developing relationships.
So that's why I would look at it
from the standpoint of looking what is my current
relationships with this person.
How did it get to where it is?
What do I like about it?
What I don't like that about it?
and what is it that I'd like to be different
about that relationship?
In this case, the post op
and whether things the two of you can talk easily about
and what are the things you don't seem to talk about?
And now how do you begin to have,
half the time it just I wasn't saying.
"You know I really been worried about this.
"I really would like to talk about that."
It's like oh, why didn't you tell me?
So much of the time, our assumptions
are that someone doesn't want to talk.
But no, you're just sitting there
and never pose the question before.
So I think those are the way.
And so really look at it in terms as a relationship,
what's good about it?
What are we struggling about as a relationship,
not just him or me or her or me
from that standpoint.
- Yeah, I think as a post op you don't have quite
the same structure around you as a student would have.
The students come into graduate school with the cohort.
They may have more opportunities to build a relationship
with peers for peer mentoring.
And graduate students might rotate
through multiple labs or go through courses
where they can meet more faculty,
and it's easier to find mentors.
For post ops, that core mentoring relationship
with your research advisor is really important.
And so mentoring up is really, really important.
and in addition to that I think giving your own structure
to your mentoring is really key.
So finding as we mentioned earlier,
identifying what your needs are.
What are areas in which you need to grow and reflecting
on that and creating a plan through an individual
development planning process for example.
Can help you recognize where you need to develop further
and where you need to take your project further,
and therefore identify how you can build
your own structures into the place.
Imagining those students out there who have something
more structured around a curriculum for example.
You can think to yourself, what's the curriculum
that I need that might be courses.
That might largely be individual conversations
with people or gathering together people
who can coach you in different areas.
Proactively asking for feedback.
I think a lot of it becomes a lot more proactive
on your shoulders as a post op.
But students, you're not off the hook.
You should be proactive too.
- Yeah, I just want to totally, totally re-emphasize
what Cynthia just said.
This idea of it's your life
and as much as you can take control over it
as oppose to sitting back
and hoping these mentors figure out
how you get your life in place.
No, as much as you can.
You really have to be taking the active voice
and active process in all of this.
- Such good advice, and following along
that last thought Rick.
We've gotten a question here as well.
Several in the course that were linked
to building self confidence
or the need to build self confidence and being assertive.
And so what do you do
if let's say your advisor is very domineering
and they're very opinionated in their ideas.
How are able to toe the line and to be able to hear them out
and at least acknowledge what they're saying,
but at the same time be true to what you really want to do
and I guess we'll start Rick.
- Thanks a lot, this is I think the most important thing
as much as you can is not let it feel.
Now this is easy to say but hard to try really hard not to
feel like it it's about you.
And usually it's about the other person,
and their need to control.
Or they're somehow they're feeling
that well if you beat somebody up and they survive.
They'll be stronger, something silly like that.
But it's a matter of of recognizing
to a certain extent of.
I'm okay, this person has, they have a approach
that they think is right.
It doesn't work for me,
so again as you can steal yourself
from letting it affect you as much as you can.
And again coming up, looking for ways to de-escalate.
Looking for ways of,
just coming up with some other constraint.
That's actually very difficult
because you have to, where is this coming from.
Where is this behavior coming from?
Think of it as their behavior.
What's driving their behavior?
It's not me that's driving their behavior.
It's them that's driving their behavior.
And so how can I understand where it's coming from
and is there any way to de-emphasize or de-escalate it
or have other people who are better.
They have more experience with it.
But again trying to protect it
from taking you down too much in that process.
because usually it's about their behavior
and not about your behavior.
Cynthia you want to chime in while I see if I have
other words of wisdom to add in this one?
- Yeah, it's a really difficult thing,
People in of all walks of life and all career paths
and across science and all institutions
experience these things.
I think that's great Rick.
I think I'll build on that by saying
there's a lot of resources on your campuses locally
or at your institutions that can help you right.
So there are certainly for skills that you can use
with working with difficult mentors or advisors,
but often the situation is so individual.
That it's helpful to talk with someone individually
and describe your situation
and think through what strategies you can use
and build your skill that way.
So some examples of resource on your campuses
might include ombudsmen office
or conflict resolution center on your campus.
Staff in those centers often can offer individual
confidential appointments
and they have real strong skills
in how to negotiate difficult conversations
in difficult relationships.
Career counselors on your campus might be good resources
or directors of post op offices.
Sometimes they have training in these things
or have talked to other scientist who
can be in difficult situations.
Also counseling offices, just having people to talk with.
Because there's emotions that come up
when you feel like you're working with someone
or working for someone who might feel overbearing
or have these other elements
that make the work more challenging.
So a lot of institutions have employee assistant programs
or other types of programs available to their employees
including their post op.
And there's also often services for students.
So I encourage you to take advantage of
all those different of more individual resources
that help you work through the situations.
- That's really great so I wanted to pivot a little bit
to maybe a little bit more troubleshooting.
Let's say you can't even have a conversation
with your mentor about your plan
because they're just not very accessible.
For whatever reason, you're really trying to schedule them
and you just can't get them scheduled.
What is your advice for dealing with a mentor like that?
And I guess Cynthia maybe we'll start with you.
- Sure I mean I think sometimes this happens
because it's just a standard MO of a advisor
and other times it happens because they're in the middle
big deadlines or maybe they have a really big group,
and it's difficult for them to keep
movement on priorities for you,
at a pace that's important for you.
I think there are different approaches.
One is again, it comes down to the common ground
is saying I know we both really want to see
this paper get submitted.
So it's been difficult for me to get feedback from you.
What's the best way for me to work with you on this
or what's the best way for me
to help move the project forward?
As I recognize that you're really busy.
Whatever it is, so I think there are ways
that you as the people day to day
driving your research project forward
might think creatively or offer ways to your advisor
for ways that you can help move
the project forward to a place.
While you're waiting to move with them.
Rick, jump in here.
What are some other ideas?
- There are not a lot of easy answers to this questions
as you can see so we're acknowledging
the complexity of these questions.
I'm sure that people are posting them many times
are living them which is much harder than us
having us to just try and respond to them.
Again, I think I've heard this,
it might come down to this.
In this situation, it depends.
It depends on as Cynthia said
this is just how they work.
And is their expectation as even as a mentor.
A lot of people do believe that as a mentor.
it's up to you to figure out.
I'm just kind of here and it's almost like it's your proof
that you can do it by being independent.
Others are just so are committed or something like that.
They just so again it's this ongoing or is it episodic.
Sometimes it's either just okay,
I'll find it somewhere else.
And so I think I would look at again,
where is it that I am stuck?
How can I get unstuck?
And is there somebody else that I can turn to?
Again I think in research groups,
it's always, we always tell people you're not actually
just becoming working with a person.
You're moving and working with a group
so looking at other people in that group.
Looking where you can get guidance
especially if this is episodic.
There are times where you just need some help,
hopefully there will be other people,
and sometimes this is where are you
would try to someone, a senior person outside.
Just for some temporary service,
some initial now guidance and what have.
We can always looking at if it's chronic,
and nothing you see seems to affect it.
Well you almost just have to come up with
okay what's my best strategy to survive it?
And get to whatever endpoint I'm going I'm trying to get to
and then move on and just be maybe
a little bit more cautious about the situation
that I get myself into in the future.
Sometimes there isn't an easy solution
other than just to get by it
and get done with it as soon as you can,
and move on to a better situation.
- Very well said, very well said.
So we have 10 minutes till and I do want to get to
at least a couple questions
about any follow-up and accountability.
So how can one ensure to get the most out of a meeting?
I know we've talked a lot about
preparing yourself for the meeting.
Kind of navigating the conversation in the moment.
So it sounds like you really need to think hard and deeply
about what you want to get out of that conversation
before you step into the meeting.
And also prepare by writing an agenda
and sending it to your mentor.
But what about the follow up?
What do you do once the meeting is over?
How how can you ensure that you know the ideas
are integrated well and that you're able to
implement them going forward,
and actually do make a change?
And I think we'll start with Rick.
- I think one thing that we always recommend
in these situations especially because everyone
is got so much things on their brains all the time
that they're trying to keep track of.
I would recommend following up
with just simply an email.
In terms of just want to make sure that I know we had talked
about a lot of things today.
I just want to make sure that I've got it right
in terms of exactly what we could come to a conclusion.
So it's an email follow-up.
It's not accusatory, I don't think you're going to follow
through or whatever.
It's a note taking of just kind of say,
here is what I thought we came away with today.
And I think that the degree of detail might be dependent
on how important it is, the precision of those details
and how close it's coming to some deadline
or something like that to maybe broad stroke.
It may be we agreed that I'm going to go ahead
and try this for the next month.
And after one month, we're going to reassess.
It's not making any progress
and then we're going to talk about it again.
So being fairly concrete without being
to a point of saying well I'm going to hold you
to this contract thing.
But is as much to help you.
Because again, it's gotten to the point now,
unless something is written down.
It probably didn't happen,
and certainly no one's going to remember it.
There's just no way,
your brains just have so much coming in and out.
So it's as much for yourself to even remember
what it is that we've talked about.
So it's a way of back to this idea of communication.
And whether communication is verbal,
the degree to which it can be remember
verses something we really want
to remember as we go forward.
It just gives it a milestone.
I think that we're finding in general more
and more with so many things happening so fast.
Some kind of way a written record.
And email is a written record of what we talked about.
And that's why going into it also
thinking about what it is I want to come out
of this meeting with.
So this idea when you're planning for a meeting,
you start from what do I want to come out of the meeting with.
And then okay what so I need to have, the structure,
the process to come out with this.
And also understanding your style of communication
versus someone else's style communication.
That's one the key things we get into
when we talk about mentoring skills
and relationship is understanding.
I love this kind of blue sky or what have you,
and that may be great.
You come to the end of your hour
and you have all those blue sky with nothing to show for it.
Or maybe your mentor is that way,
so okay you know they're that way
so if you have to have an agenda.
So I was like okay this is what I want to come out with.
I know ahead of time, so you're actually telling them
this is what I want to come out of this meeting with
so that bound them to a certain extent as well.
I think the documentation for everybody's value
I think it's really important.
- Yeah, I want to emphasize that.
It might feel awkward or strange to some summarize
the next steps in an email
but it can be a pretty short email even.
The level of detail as is appropriate in the situation.
But I would agree I always appreciate it
when people follow up an email that way,
because my life is busy right.
The lives of your advisors are busy
and so it can be a really nice summary and reminder to them
and it helps communicate that you
really understood the outcomes.
So it might give them a sense of relief
or a feeling of trusting that the project
will move forward the way it was discussed.
I want to add to that, that kind of summary you can start
at the end of the meeting.
This is something that we often forget
is that we have a meeting to discuss ideas like Rick said.
We can be blue skies, meaning we get excited about
all these different ideas
even if we're talking through details.
We might talk through details about this project
and the next project and the next project.
I found it's really, really valuable
at the end of the meeting, just in the last minute.
Say this has been such a valuable meeting.
Alright so just to summarize,
this is what I heard are the next steps.
And you just say one, two, three, four, five.
Very, very brief you don't describe them in depth
because you just discussed them.
But that way you know that you
and the person in the room with you.
Your advisor, whoever it is are on the same page,
and that makes for a real easy email
then follow up with afterwards as well.
That way if there is any confusion
or disagreement or when you list it.
You have the opportunity to say,
oh but wait a minute,
we didn't discuss what happens if this happens.
So you can catch things in the moment
with the person in the room if you need to.
- It's a great way to catch sooner rather than later
if all of a sudden you thought one thing,
the other person thought something else.
And believe me, that does happen,
and it's much better to catch that right off the bat
than you have it lingering until a month later
when memories are fading at best.
- That's so great.
It took me so long to learn that skill.
So we actually have another question
that's kind of related to the answers
that you guys have just given,
and that is pretty much I think it's related to note taking.
So how to how to keep track of a discussion
that's constantly focusing or evolving overtime.
And I'm pretty much sounds like
will you really have the agenda,
and it's think about roughly how much time
you want to spend on each thing that you want to talk about.
And for me personally what I do is I take notes,
in my agenda I have it on my laptop.
And it's just like a living document
and I take notes for what's being said under each thing,
and it helps me keep track of what's going on.
But it also helps to stay to the task of the agenda.
So that's basically my strategy and if you guys
in the next minute or so have any other strategies
that you wanted to put forward please do.
Rick or Cynthia.
- Yeah, I've gone one step further in terms again.
I do a lot of conversations with people
about research strategies and what have you.
And the note taking is great
but actually it disengages you,
you shifting to have to try and write it down.
So I literally have right here my little pocket recorder
and when I'm engaging a conversation
about something like this.
That actually you may come up with something,
I just record it and so then we can ship the reel
that the files are on, because it allows you then
to really engage in the conversation as opposed to
"Oh well stop a minute, stop talking and let me type".
Especially if you're getting into some really complicated
decisions about research strategies and stuff.
But actually if you don't need it fine,
electronic is free.
So I've actually go onto that level of meetings
try to capture the conversations
that we have along research directions design.
- Rick when you do that, I'm assuming that you ask people
or let people know ahead of time that you're recording
or ask them if they're okay with recording the conversation.
- Oh right because--
- That's best practice.
- Yeah, because I just going to send it to you
as soon as you're done just
so we can have a fair conversation.
And it's sitting on my desk but certainly
if anybody ever has any,
I mean I don't do it if it's a advising conversation.
But for talking about this research moving forward,
research ideas and most people is like,
wow I never thought of that yes please do kind of thing.
But absolutely nothing, nothing.
Never mind I'll just leave it at.
- That really great, so I wanted to ask one final question
and that's a question on accountability.
So what are some strategies that you recommend for someone
to hold themselves accountable to their research plan?
And I know you already discussed some of those.
And how often should you be following up with your mentor
or mentors to talk about your long-term research goal?
I think Cynthia, I will start with you.
- Well I think I know one thing that we raised a few times
that's really important to remember and think able
deliberately and intentionally is outlining the next steps.
And the next steps being very specific in terms of
I will do this by this date
and then you will do this by this date.
So what's the action that will happen?
What's the time frame or the date
by which it will happen,
and who's the person doing it?
And framing it that way get down to real specifics.
And when you're really specific
and you write it down or you send it by email.
That's one way to hold each other accountable.
It's almost like this informal psychological contract
that you're developing with you and yourself
or you and the person you're working with.
What was your follow up question?
- How often should you meet with your mentors
or mentors to discuss your longterm goals?
- I would think bigger picture planning meetings.
I think that really depends on where you are
in your developmental stage as a scientist.
As Rick said the very, very beginning.
That will determine a lot of when it's appropriate
to return to these bigger picture conversations.
It might be once a month.
It might be every 3 months.
I think certainly every 6 months for anyone,
probably is the farthest out you should go
in terms of having these big picture meetings.
Which might be different from sometimes annual thesis
committee schedule that students might be used to.
I really think having bigger picture conversations,
more frequent than that is important.
- Yeah I would just add that's about the same
timeframe I would think of.
More often than every six months,
can feel like if this don't change that fast.
So a lot of it depends on the nature of the project.
And the other one, let's see oh yeah.
The other thing that I would suggest
when you're coming out with the time
is after you come up this grand time,
say okay now let's talk reality check.
How does really fit with the things you have going on in
your life and how does it fit with things
I have to my own research group at this point?
I'm really bad say, oh yeah we can do this.
Okay say reality check time.
When is this going to fit into the things
that are already in the schedule?
So reality checks can be really valuable
at some point along the line.
- Wow thank you so much,
we've reached the end of our time unfortunately.
I feel like I could talk to you guys forever.
Congratulations you guys have navigated
an incredibly hard topic to discuss,
because having conversations
just are inherently difficult.
And then when you add in the mix of doing research
in science and its unpredictability.
It just makes it even harder.
So thank you so much you guys,
Rick and Cynthia for being here
and answering these questions
and really given such wonderful thoughtful responses.
We're getting a lot of really great responses
through the live chat.
So we want to I thank our audience
for joining us today for this live Q&A.
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